I don't think anyone can deny the fact that St Kilda and Geelong deserve top billing. It's a rare piece of history that they find themselves in. I think everyone's been holding out for it, and the good thing is they both held up at the weekend. I think we're all waiting for it.
You're 8-5 and in the top four. You must be pretty rapt, given where you were six weeks ago?
Yeah, but the ladder's insignificant until round 22. I know that might sound a bit clichéd but it really doesn't have any bearing on how we go about our game.
We have our own criteria in regard to a ladder that we've designed. But there is no significance in the AFL ladder until the end of 22 rounds, because at the end of that period that'll tell you whether or not you're playing finals. You've got to look at the methodology more so than where you are on the ladder.
Do you feel like you're making any ground on the top two sides in the competition?
Well, we don't play them for the rest of the year, so I'm pretty happy for them to keep winning! I'd like to keep going with the same ratio; that'd be handy. If they [Geelong and St Kilda] can keep knocking sides over, that'd be very handy.
I'd noticed that you don't play St Kilda or Geelong for the rest of the season. Do you think that's a good thing?
Is it a good thing? Do you really want to know where you're at? Play the best sides? Or do you want to avoid them and have a false impression of where you're at? But you can't design the draw.
Who would have thought that at round 13 the two top sides playing off are St Kilda, who finished wherever they finished last year, and Geelong who were runners-up? I mean that would have been designed earlier in the season if everyone had hindsight.
You do get to play the Bulldogs twice though in the run home.
I know we play the Bulldogs in two weeks, but again I have my own set routine of who you look at and who you don't look at. I'm not going to lie, I'll say to you now I do know the next three opponents but that's only because it fits into a block that we look at. As far as the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh teams [that we play] I couldn't tell you in order.
I've heard you say, and I know all teams say, they go into every match expecting to win. After losing to the Cats in round three you said "Geelong, playing at their absolute best; they'll beat us because they're better than us".
On talent, yeah. That's the total rationale of life. If Muhammad Ali at his best got in the ring with Johnny Famechon at his best, one a heavyweight and one a flyweight, there's one outcome … and I'm not drawing a comparison between Ali and Famechon with Geelong and Collingwood. I'm just saying that too often we ignore the most obvious thing – how much talent has the opposition got? And if all their talent is on the ground together playing at their best, that's why they're the best.
So when you come up against these sides that you think might possess more talent than your own, is it a matter of catching them on a bad day?
No, because you can't take for granted that someone's going to have a bad day. What you've got to do is minimise their impact.
Therefore is that how much control you can have from the coach's box?
What it is, is how much control our playing group has on being able to limit the opposition from being as good as they want to be. We set the strategies and the players then [have to do their jobs].
What about the psychology of saying something like that? Do you ever pick up the paper the next day and think, 'Oh maybe I shouldn't have said that'?
Why?
Would your players read that and say, 'Well we don't have as much talent as Geelong'?
They're not blind and they're not that naïve. And whether they read it or not, I don't know because I certainly didn't read it. I said it but I wouldn't have read it.
I want to ask you about a few players. Firstly, Travis Cloke. The external view – and even that of Travis himself – has been that his form has been a little bit down this year. Has it been a confidence thing with him this year?
He probably hasn't played as well as two years ago but he hasn't let us down. He may not have kicked as many goals but I daresay we've probably kicked as many goals as the previous season. I couldn't answer that because I don't know the answer to that. So it's not a matter of who kicks them; it's how they're distributed. We had 13 goalkickers on the weekend (against Fremantle) and you don't argue about 13 goalkickers.
Travis is a young centre-half forward. Some go there and make it their own. We all know that Wayne Carey's probably one of the best ever but really, other players that have succeeded there, their best terms have been when they're 24, 25, 26 onwards, when they've got their full body strength, they're familiar with their teammates around them, vice-versa and they're very good players.
Jonathan Brown is one of the best, Scott Lucas for many, many years made it his own, Matthew Pavlich, Cameron Mooney, Warren Tredrea … I think we tend to load up young players with high expectations and think that if they're not having a good year statistically, they're not having a good year. That's far from the truth here.
Another one of those young players is Dale Thomas. He, like Travis, has had a few injury problems. How have you rated his season?
Dale hasn't disappointed us. Again, if we're going by statistics then probably our worst player is Simon Prestigiacomo. Dale's played such a variety of roles for us this year and I think that's been very harsh criticism to level at a player who week in, week out, gets a nod on Monday morning about the type of game that we want him to play this particular week.
His flexibility is obviously a great strength. Do you see him continuing to play a variety of roles from week to week throughout his career or do you think when he's in his prime he might be a permanent half-forward or a midfielder?
That's all in the future and sometimes it's very difficult because you don't know how far people develop. I'd be disappointed in Dale if he doesn't maintain that aspect of his game where he can play forward pocket to back pocket. He can go into the middle, he's a very clean, one-touch player with a wonderful sense of where the ball's going to go. I would love to think he can keep that sense of being able to play in a multitude of positions and still take on that challenge.
Presti, who you mentioned earlier, has been terrific this year. Has it surprised you just how reliable he's been considering his past injury issues and the fact he's now 31?
We've always known how reliable he is it's just that when a player hasn't played a lot of football because he's been injured you cross your fingers and say, 'why didn't he and can he get up and play the next year?'. We've been delighted the way he's gone … it's been terrific that Presti's been able to stand up.
He must be right up there in your best and fairest?
He'd be very high, for sure.
What about the ruck situation? Josh Fraser, despite copping a bit of a whack from the media earlier in the year, has had a great year. But does he need the support, especially in September, of a second big man?
We've got two ruckmen. Leigh Brown or at the weekend Chris Dawes played in the ruck. So we go in with two ruckmen.
Do you need two specialist ruckmen?
Well that's probably the word. They may not be in the mould of 200cm. That'll change on a week to week basis. In all honesty I can't guarantee that that won't change even this weekend because we analyse the opposition and ask 'is it better to go with the two specialised ruckmen or is it better to go with one? What are the conditions? Who do we play? What's the form like?'.
And Cameron Wood, again, is only a very young man. Some will say 'well hang on Kreuzer comes in and he's first ruck for Carlton at 18 or 19' but some mature quicker than others.
We've got high hopes that Cameron will put on his needed five or six kilos. I have no doubt that he needs five or six kilos. He may even need 10 kilos, as long as he doesn't lose his mobility. He's a very good mark, good kick, can pick the ball up off the ground but I think he needs that body strength to go the next step.
So he hasn't disappointed the club at all? Because he's one that some Pies fans might be getting a bit impatient with given you gave up pick 14 for him.
Well pick 14, but there's been heaps of pick 10, 11, 12, 13, 14s to 17s that you say 'what's happening to them?' but they're long-term projects. Cameron Wood was never picked to be an instant first ruck. He was picked as a young man who spent a couple of years in Brisbane to get a couple of years' experience and now finds himself in a position where he's looking at Josh to see whether he can go past Josh. And that's what we want; for him to put pressure on Josh and then take it over.
Is it too early to write Anthony Rocca off?
Far too early. We've spent some time with Anthony just plotting his next phase of this year. That's one thing that hasn't worked out as well as what we would have liked because it's been an ongoing problem. He's been such a powerhouse forward that quite often the toll taken on the bodies of these blokes is pretty tough and he's taken his fair share of that, so he's getting his body right, really. And it's taken a bit longer than what we thought.
So anything you could get from him this year?
It would be a real bonus. It'd be really good for us.
Bomber Thompson has just re-signed with the Cats, Mark Williams has been offered another two years. Do you have any news?
No, nothing.
Do you expect to be here next year?
I have no idea. No idea.
I was at the press conference leading into your 600th match a couple of weeks ago and you said you hadn't thought beyond October 31. Is that still the case?
I know where I'm going to be October 31. I think I've told you before – in Dublin (coaching the International Rules team).
Do you want to be here next year?
I'd like to coach next year. And obviously my preference is to be at Collingwood.
Another one you get asked a lot – Nathan Buckley. Is he ready to coach senior football?
I could say that about every assistant, every best player or good player that I come across. The provisos are always going to be how they sit in the main seat because so many of these young men that I see are fantastic in the assistant coaches' job or as players. History has shown that great players can go on and become great coaches. There's no right way or wrong way about choosing a coach. Sometimes it's gut, sometimes it's what they do know but for every one that does become a champion coach, there's probably four or five that fall by the wayside.
On the surface, Nathan Buckley should be a fine coach but – and there's always going to be a but – there's going to be good players and players that got through their career playing 100 to 200 games and really battled to get through those games who have got an innate ability to know the game and an innate ability to get the best out of people. And coaching's all about that – knowing the game and getting the best out of people. Not how you played yourself.
Nathan arrived back from overseas recently. His name is obviously in the thick of things with two coaching vacancies, but when asked about those he also mentioned the word 'assistant', which was interesting. If you're in charge next year and there was a spot for him on your coaching panel, would you look to get him to Collingwood?
Well, that's academic.
Would you be comfortable with it?
Oh, absolutely. Nathan's my assistant coach with the Irish [International Rules] side. Contrary to what people want to believe I get on very well with Nathan and always have.
Do you chat with him much?
I spoke to him a few days ago. It would have been Friday morning … Nathan comes down the club a bit, and I see him then. It's probably more infrequent now because his role with the AIS (AIS/AFL Academy) is so demanding.
Do you think he will seek your advice, given there's two jobs going?
Knowing Nathan, yes. Because I think he'll talk to every man who has anything to do with football, because he's one of these blokes that I think goes to the nth degree to find out more and more information. He's a student of life, really.
Your side looks to have a bit of a head of steam up at the moment. What's this Collingwood team capable of achieving this year?
I just think that on the day, and I think we've seen that in the last month, both St Kilda and Geelong have been challenged. The Dogs lost by under a goal [to Geelong], Fremantle last week against Geelong were very competitive until the last five minutes, a couple of sides got close to the Saints in the last month.
The side that will win the premiership and the sides that will play off and will go deep into September will have an ounce of luck injury-wise. They'll have form coming at the right time, they will play a side that perhaps won't have that ounce of luck and the result will be clear.
You know in your own heart of hearts how your side is running and what sort of group you've got. We've played 36 senior players (this year). If they're all up and running we've got a good list to pick from. If you lose key players, you're automatically dragged back to a point where you've got to cover those players. The side that will succeed in finals will be the side that can pick generally from their group that got them there during the year. Can Collingwood do that? Well, let's get to the finals first.
Finally, who's your tip for this week – St Kilda or Geelong?
Saints.
